So exasperated about the amount of accumulating scientific articles about the search for ET. Can't we just stop looking for them? What are they are they good for anyway? their lifestyle is probably too exotic and incompatible with ours anyway, assuming they are out there. Why chance wasting funds for an unknown but possibly an insignificant probability of discovery? At least let's build real sensitive detection instruments before throwing billions and billions of dollars to futile SETI!!! Intelligent radio transmissions... Really? That's what we're looking for?
It takes careful calibration of machines and planning to detect just high energy electromagnetic radiation that originates from cosmic events, like those from magnetar's pulses or hypernovas for instance.
Also there is no way in hell an interstellar civilization is using electromagnetic radiation for anything, again assuming there is one out there. I can't emphasize often enough, intelligent aliens are still hypothetical.
Stupid Carl Sagan and his gullible followers.
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Deo, I'm pretty sure most scientists are like you and don't really think there's much value to the project. It's mostly for the sci-fi crowd. In fact, scientists usually look down on the "rock stars" like Sagan or Hawking. A "real" physicist isn't interested in dreams or pandering to the uneducated public.
Others see these projects as useful motivators.
I suspect there may not be anyone out there either - At least, not within our spatial or technological range. Maybe some multi-dimensional graviton communication exists, but we don't have it so we won't find them.
I think if you turn on your detectors and you aren't bombarded with alien porn, then there aren't any aliens. In 10,000 years, we'll probably be able to broadcast radio waves throughout the entire galaxy. In a million years, we'd be flooding automated broadcast beacons to every solar system in the night sky. The universe has been around for well over 10 billion years - if any society was around, they'd be at least a million years old... we'd have seen them.
Either they die... or move away... or we are the first. It's possible intelligent life is just an incredibly rare mistake that hasn't happened before.
Deo, I'm pretty sure most scientists are like you and don't really think there's much value to the project. It's mostly for the sci-fi crowd. In fact, scientists usually look down on the "rock stars" like Sagan or Hawking. A "real" physicist isn't interested in dreams or pandering to the uneducated public.
Others see these projects as useful motivators.
I suspect there may not be anyone out there either - At least, not within our spatial or technological range. Maybe some multi-dimensional graviton communication exists, but we don't have it so we won't find them.
I think if you turn on your detectors and you aren't bombarded with alien porn, then there aren't any aliens. In 10,000 years, we'll probably be able to broadcast radio waves throughout the entire galaxy. In a million years, we'd be flooding automated broadcast beacons to every solar system in the night sky. The universe has been around for well over 10 billion years - if any society was around, they'd be at least a million years old... we'd have seen them.
Either they die... or move away... or we are the first. It's possible intelligent life is just an incredibly rare mistake that hasn't happened before.
Deo, I'm pretty sure most scientists are like you and don't really think there's much value to the project. It's mostly for the sci-fi crowd. In fact, scientists usually look down on the "rock stars" like Sagan or Hawking. A "real" physicist isn't interested in dreams or pandering to the uneducated public.
Others see these projects as useful motivators.
I suspect there may not be anyone out there either - At least, not within our spatial or technological range. Maybe some multi-dimensional graviton communication exists, but we don't have it so we won't find them.
I think if you turn on your detectors and you aren't bombarded with alien porn, then there aren't any aliens. In 10,000 years, we'll probably be able to broadcast radio waves throughout the entire galaxy. In a million years, we'd be flooding automated broadcast beacons to every solar system in the night sky. The universe has been around for well over 10 billion years - if any society was around, they'd be at least a million years old... we'd have seen them.
Either they die... or move away... or we are the first. It's possible intelligent life is just an incredibly rare mistake that hasn't happened before.
[/quote]
This.
I suspect that life is quite common in the universe but I reckon intelligent life is probably incredibly rare.
Deo, I'm pretty sure most scientists are like you and don't really think there's much value to the project. It's mostly for the sci-fi crowd. In fact, scientists usually look down on the "rock stars" like Sagan or Hawking. A "real" physicist isn't interested in dreams or pandering to the uneducated public.
Others see these projects as useful motivators.
I suspect there may not be anyone out there either - At least, not within our spatial or technological range. Maybe some multi-dimensional graviton communication exists, but we don't have it so we won't find them.
I think if you turn on your detectors and you aren't bombarded with alien porn, then there aren't any aliens. In 10,000 years, we'll probably be able to broadcast radio waves throughout the entire galaxy. In a million years, we'd be flooding automated broadcast beacons to every solar system in the night sky. The universe has been around for well over 10 billion years - if any society was around, they'd be at least a million years old... we'd have seen them.
Either they die... or move away... or we are the first. It's possible intelligent life is just an incredibly rare mistake that hasn't happened before.
This.
I suspect that life is quite common in the universe but I reckon intelligent life is probably incredibly rare.
maybe we've missed the windows to detect those signals...
maybe we've missed the windows to detect those signals...
The nearest star system is lightyears away, the technology and power needed to traverse that distance in an efficient manner just go get here would be fucking lightyears ahead of anything we have. So if they have that technology and are able to generate that much power, they wouldn't be visiting us in little flying saucers. We'd be the proverbial ant to their shoe, we're parasites compared to them on a technological level.
Now, I have absolutely no problem with the idea that life does live outside our solar system.
The nearest star system is lightyears away, the technology and power needed to traverse that distance in an efficient manner just go get here would be fucking lightyears ahead of anything we have. So if they have that technology and are able to generate that much power, they wouldn't be visiting us in little flying saucers. We'd be the proverbial ant to their shoe, we're parasites compared to them on a technological level.
Now, I have absolutely no problem with the idea that life does live outside our solar system.
^That would be hard to do considering at first there would have to be a standard to define the term which by your own argument we lack the intelligence to establish.
^That would be hard to do considering at first there would have to be a standard to define the term which by your own argument we lack the intelligence to establish.
The nearest star system is lightyears away, the technology and power needed to traverse that distance in an efficient manner just go get here would be fucking lightyears ahead of anything we have..
[/quote]
1. You mean planetary system.
2. Of course it's light years away most everything is light years away.
3. You used the term light years to refer to distance and time.
The nearest star system is lightyears away, the technology and power needed to traverse that distance in an efficient manner just go get here would be fucking lightyears ahead of anything we have..
1. You mean planetary system.
2. Of course it's light years away most everything is light years away.
3. You used the term light years to refer to distance and time.
[/quote]
Ha, your logic is flawed. Shape of the earth matters cause it helps with aviation and other long distance travels on this planet, satellite communication and other high tech such as GPS. You fail.
Color of the sky? It might help the average Joe to give some clues to weather conditions. You fail again.
[quote user=mmateri] are you meaning to tell me, we allowed these refugee's into canada, fed them, taught them, supported them financially, gave them a life in our country and all the advantages we have, and then they turn around, and talk to tan about carl sagans fucking aliens...........
[/quote]
At least I do get a chance to thank those that have helped me get my life together. Keep it up, stick to working hard and sweating for the likes of me. Also, never forget to pay those taxes... ***wink wink***
[quote user=ericmanning]I guess some people hope we might detect a broadcast with more advanced technology from which we could benefit.[/quote]
Radio? We have that already.
[quote user=ericmanning]Deo, I'm pretty sure most scientists are like you and don't really think there's much value to the project. It's mostly for the sci-fi crowd. [/quote]
FYI, I am very much into the sci fi genre, I would not mind dressing up for Startrek conventions.
[quote user=ericmanning]
I suspect there may not be anyone out there either - At least, not within our spatial or technological range. Maybe some multi-dimensional graviton communication exists, but we don't have it so we won't find them.[/quote]
Yes exactly, they are most likely using weird exotic technologies for FTL broadcast and other sorts of communications unknown and possibly undetectable to us. So it irks me when I see people wasting away funds when we could be probing our solar system (which we know almost nothing about) or exploring ocean floors (another thing we know almost nothing about). We are seriously behind in environmental science. I can't believe the lack of talks to do exploration research on Europa, one of Jupiter's moon, which is a fascinating candidate for its high potential of living dwellers. I am also keen to thinking aliens are out there, it would be strange if we were the only ones capable of understanding our surroundings. The thing is that we do not have the right tools to survey the cosmos for other lifeforms, except the ones we have right here or possibly in neighboring astronomical bodies within our solar systems.
SETI was okay before since the equipment used was not principally for the search of ET, more like a side project. But now I hear people are investing billions to construct sky survey sites in South Africa and Australia, solely to probe space for non terrestrial intelligence. WTF??? To me SETI is sort of like UFOlogy, a form of pseudoscience. I understand many scientific discovery took extraordinary measures and thinking outside of the box but seriously a little sensible reservation and down to earth skepticism couldn't hurt.
[quote user=pablo]I suspect that life is quite common in the universe but I reckon intelligent life is probably incredibly rare. [/quote]
I do have a few objections. Intelligent life could be abundant, we exist due to biochemical mechanisms not unique to our planet. But space is incredibly vast, one of the limiting factor in our search for non human intelligence. And we have no idea what other types of life could be like. I just don't really like the fact we are only concentrating on searching for life that might be using tech not unlike ours, considering the vast distances in space. I'm also sure radio transmissions lose their quality with interference, scattering and other weird propagation phenomenon in space.
Ha, your logic is flawed. Shape of the earth matters cause it helps with aviation and other long distance travels on this planet, satellite communication and other high tech such as GPS. You fail.
Color of the sky? It might help the average Joe to give some clues to weather conditions. You fail again.
At least I do get a chance to thank those that have helped me get my life together. Keep it up, stick to working hard and sweating for the likes of me. Also, never forget to pay those taxes... ***wink wink***
Radio? We have that already.
FYI, I am very much into the sci fi genre, I would not mind dressing up for Startrek conventions.
I suspect there may not be anyone out there either - At least, not within our spatial or technological range. Maybe some multi-dimensional graviton communication exists, but we don't have it so we won't find them.
Yes exactly, they are most likely using weird exotic technologies for FTL broadcast and other sorts of communications unknown and possibly undetectable to us. So it irks me when I see people wasting away funds when we could be probing our solar system (which we know almost nothing about) or exploring ocean floors (another thing we know almost nothing about). We are seriously behind in environmental science. I can't believe the lack of talks to do exploration research on Europa, one of Jupiter's moon, which is a fascinating candidate for its high potential of living dwellers. I am also keen to thinking aliens are out there, it would be strange if we were the only ones capable of understanding our surroundings. The thing is that we do not have the right tools to survey the cosmos for other lifeforms, except the ones we have right here or possibly in neighboring astronomical bodies within our solar systems.
SETI was okay before since the equipment used was not principally for the search of ET, more like a side project. But now I hear people are investing billions to construct sky survey sites in South Africa and Australia, solely to probe space for non terrestrial intelligence. WTF??? To me SETI is sort of like UFOlogy, a form of pseudoscience. I understand many scientific discovery took extraordinary measures and thinking outside of the box but seriously a little sensible reservation and down to earth skepticism couldn't hurt.
I do have a few objections. Intelligent life could be abundant, we exist due to biochemical mechanisms not unique to our planet. But space is incredibly vast, one of the limiting factor in our search for non human intelligence. And we have no idea what other types of life could be like. I just don't really like the fact we are only concentrating on searching for life that might be using tech not unlike ours, considering the vast distances in space. I'm also sure radio transmissions lose their quality with interference, scattering and other weird propagation phenomenon in space.
Ha, your logic is flawed. Shape of the earth matters cause it helps with aviation and other long distance travels on this planet, satellite communication and other high tech such as GPS. You fail.
Color of the sky? It might help the average Joe to give some clues to weather conditions. You fail again.
[quote user=mmateri]are you meaning to tell me, we allowed these refugee's into canada, fed them, taught them, supported them financially, gave them a life in our country and all the advantages we have, and then they turn around, and talk to tan about carl sagans fucking aliens...........
At least I do get a chance to thank those that have helped me get my life together. Keep it up, stick to working hard and sweating for the likes of me. Also, never forget to pay those taxes... ***wink wink***
[quote user=ericmanning]I guess some people hope we might detect a broadcast with more advanced technology from which we could benefit.[/quote]
Radio? We have that already.
[quote user=ericmanning]Deo, I'm pretty sure most scientists are like you and don't really think there's much value to the project. It's mostly for the sci-fi crowd.[/quote]
FYI, I am very much into the sci fi genre, I would not mind dressing up for Startrek conventions.
[quote user=ericmanning]I suspect there may not be anyone out there either - At least, not within our spatial or technological range. Maybe some multi-dimensional graviton communication exists, but we don't have it so we won't find them.[/quote]
Yes exactly, they are most likely using weird exotic technologies for FTL broadcast and other sorts of communications unknown and possibly undetectable to us. So it irks me when I see people wasting away funds when we could be probing our solar system (which we know almost nothing about) or exploring ocean floors (another thing we know almost nothing about). We are seriously behind in environmental science. I can't believe the lack of talks to do exploration research on Europa, one of Jupiter's moon, which is a fascinating candidate for its high potential of living dwellers. I am also keen to thinking aliens are out there, it would be strange if we were the only ones capable of understanding our surroundings. The thing is that we do not have the right tools to survey the cosmos for other lifeforms, except the ones we have right here or possibly in neighboring astronomical bodies within our solar systems.
SETI was okay before since the equipment used was not principally for the search of ET, more like a side project. But now I hear people are investing billions to construct sky survey sites in South Africa and Australia, solely to probe space for non terrestrial intelligence. WTF??? To me SETI is sort of like UFOlogy, a form of pseudoscience. I understand many scientific discovery took extraordinary measures and thinking outside of the box but seriously a little sensible reservation and down to earth skepticism couldn't hurt.
[quote user=pablo]I suspect that life is quite common in the universe but I reckon intelligent life is probably incredibly rare.[/quote]
I do have a few objections. Intelligent life could be abundant, we exist due to biochemical mechanisms not unique to our planet. But space is incredibly vast, one of the limiting factor in our search for non human intelligence. And we have no idea what other types of life could be like. I just don't really like the fact we are only concentrating on searching for life that might be using tech not unlike ours, considering the vast distances in space. I'm also sure radio transmissions lose their quality with interference, scattering and other weird propagation phenomenon in space.
[/quote]
My point was, albeit drunk at the time, is that the whole point of science is asking questions and looking for answers. Just because you dont think the question/answer is relevant doesnt make it irrelevant.
Ha, your logic is flawed. Shape of the earth matters cause it helps with aviation and other long distance travels on this planet, satellite communication and other high tech such as GPS. You fail.
Color of the sky? It might help the average Joe to give some clues to weather conditions. You fail again.
At least I do get a chance to thank those that have helped me get my life together. Keep it up, stick to working hard and sweating for the likes of me. Also, never forget to pay those taxes... ***wink wink***
Radio? We have that already.
FYI, I am very much into the sci fi genre, I would not mind dressing up for Startrek conventions.
Yes exactly, they are most likely using weird exotic technologies for FTL broadcast and other sorts of communications unknown and possibly undetectable to us. So it irks me when I see people wasting away funds when we could be probing our solar system (which we know almost nothing about) or exploring ocean floors (another thing we know almost nothing about). We are seriously behind in environmental science. I can't believe the lack of talks to do exploration research on Europa, one of Jupiter's moon, which is a fascinating candidate for its high potential of living dwellers. I am also keen to thinking aliens are out there, it would be strange if we were the only ones capable of understanding our surroundings. The thing is that we do not have the right tools to survey the cosmos for other lifeforms, except the ones we have right here or possibly in neighboring astronomical bodies within our solar systems.
SETI was okay before since the equipment used was not principally for the search of ET, more like a side project. But now I hear people are investing billions to construct sky survey sites in South Africa and Australia, solely to probe space for non terrestrial intelligence. WTF??? To me SETI is sort of like UFOlogy, a form of pseudoscience. I understand many scientific discovery took extraordinary measures and thinking outside of the box but seriously a little sensible reservation and down to earth skepticism couldn't hurt.
I do have a few objections. Intelligent life could be abundant, we exist due to biochemical mechanisms not unique to our planet. But space is incredibly vast, one of the limiting factor in our search for non human intelligence. And we have no idea what other types of life could be like. I just don't really like the fact we are only concentrating on searching for life that might be using tech not unlike ours, considering the vast distances in space. I'm also sure radio transmissions lose their quality with interference, scattering and other weird propagation phenomenon in space.
My point was, albeit drunk at the time, is that the whole point of science is asking questions and looking for answers. Just because you dont think the question/answer is relevant doesnt make it irrelevant.
Now they do say the funding is utilized to support astrobiology science programs, not specifically towards SETI programs. But sometimes I do wonder why SETI is not in the category of astrobiology.
reference: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10454&page=1
Now they do say the funding is utilized to support astrobiology science programs, not specifically towards SETI programs. But sometimes I do wonder why SETI is not in the category of astrobiology.
reference: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10454&page=1
Now they do say the funding is utilized to support astrobiology science programs, not specifically towards SETI programs. But sometimes I do wonder why SETI is not in the category of astrobiology.
reference: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10454&page=1
[/quote]
Their annual budget is available online, and the figure I gave relates only to the public purse.
For example.
Annual costs for ATA operations are $1.5 million and the SETI campaign at the array are another $1 million.
The figure you give of 58 million relates to the entire Allen Telescope Array, which includes research outwith the remit of SETI, and 30 million of it came from Paul Allen of Microsoft.
Now they do say the funding is utilized to support astrobiology science programs, not specifically towards SETI programs. But sometimes I do wonder why SETI is not in the category of astrobiology.
reference: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10454&page=1
Their annual budget is available online, and the figure I gave relates only to the public purse.
For example.
Annual costs for ATA operations are $1.5 million and the SETI campaign at the array are another $1 million.
The figure you give of 58 million relates to the entire Allen Telescope Array, which includes research outwith the remit of SETI, and 30 million of it came from Paul Allen of Microsoft.
It's like you're trolling me.
[quote user=digitalantichrist]The figure you give of 58 million relates to the entire Allen Telescope Array, which includes research outwith the remit of SETI, and 30 million of it came from Paul Allen of Microsoft. [/quote]
As I said, when I mentioned the 58 million figure, I did not include private contributions, only taxpayers investments, this comes directly from the US government. So that 30 million, which you rounded from 28 million lol, is in not part of the 58million dollars.
It's like you're trolling me.
As I said, when I mentioned the 58 million figure, I did not include private contributions, only taxpayers investments, this comes directly from the US government. So that 30 million, which you rounded from 28 million lol, is in not part of the 58million dollars.
It's like you're trolling me.
[/quote]
Take another look at my reply.
Frankly, I don't give a fuck about your opinion, they've presented their budget, it's all over the internet, they've asked their donors for money of around that sum... do you think they'd ask for less if it cost more?
It's like you're trolling me.
Take another look at my reply.
Frankly, I don't give a fuck about your opinion, they've presented their budget, it's all over the internet, they've asked their donors for money of around that sum... do you think they'd ask for less if it cost more?
It's like you're trolling me.
[quote user=digitalantichrist]The figure you give of 58 million relates to the entire Allen Telescope Array, which includes research outwith the remit of SETI, and 30 million of it came from Paul Allen of Microsoft.[/quote]
As I said, when I mentioned the 58 million figure, I did not include private contributions, only taxpayers investments, this comes directly from the US government. So that 30 million, which you rounded from 28 million lol, is in not part of the 58million dollars.
[/quote]
cite your source.
Contrary to popular belief, no government funds are allocated for its SETI searches – these are financed entirely by private contributions
and
There is currently no government funding for SETI research, and private funding is always limited. Berkeley Space Science Lab has found ways of working with small budgets and the project has received donations allowing it to go well beyond its original planned duration, but it still has to compete for limited funds with other SETI projects and other space sciences projects.
also
http://philosophyofscienceportal.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/no-government-funding-for-seti.html
and
The SETI Institute sought private funds for the 1HT and in 2001 Paul Allen (co-founder of Microsoft) agreed to fund the technology development and first phase of construction (42 antennas)
finally
When NASA stopped funding the SETI project in the early '90s, Sullivan said, Allen stepped in with money to keep it alive. In August 2000, he said, Allen and Myhrvold's support for the telescope project reinvigorated the entire enterprise.
It's like you're trolling me.
As I said, when I mentioned the 58 million figure, I did not include private contributions, only taxpayers investments, this comes directly from the US government. So that 30 million, which you rounded from 28 million lol, is in not part of the 58million dollars.
cite your source.
Contrary to popular belief, no government funds are allocated for its SETI searches – these are financed entirely by private contributions
and
There is currently no government funding for SETI research, and private funding is always limited. Berkeley Space Science Lab has found ways of working with small budgets and the project has received donations allowing it to go well beyond its original planned duration, but it still has to compete for limited funds with other SETI projects and other space sciences projects.
also
http://philosophyofscienceportal.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/no-government-funding-for-seti.html
and
The SETI Institute sought private funds for the 1HT and in 2001 Paul Allen (co-founder of Microsoft) agreed to fund the technology development and first phase of construction (42 antennas)
finally
When NASA stopped funding the SETI project in the early '90s, Sullivan said, Allen stepped in with money to keep it alive. In August 2000, he said, Allen and Myhrvold's support for the telescope project reinvigorated the entire enterprise.
That is an interesting question. I have no idea how to answer that. I do not know why they even ask for funds, they have membership fees that range from 35 to 10000 dollars, I am sure they have a lot of members that were more than willing to join the Carl Sagan cult. They do receive other funds from other sources as well, maybe the 6 million/year is to cover low level projects? I just don't know.
That is an interesting question. I have no idea how to answer that. I do not know why they even ask for funds, they have membership fees that range from 35 to 10000 dollars, I am sure they have a lot of members that were more than willing to join the Carl Sagan cult. They do receive other funds from other sources as well, maybe the 6 million/year is to cover low level projects? I just don't know.
cite your source.
Contrary to popular belief, no government funds are allocated for its SETI searches – these are financed entirely by private contributions
and
There is currently no government funding for SETI research, and private funding is always limited. Berkeley Space Science Lab has found ways of working with small budgets and the project has received donations allowing it to go well beyond its original planned duration, but it still has to compete for limited funds with other SETI projects and other space sciences projects.
also
http://philosophyofscienceportal.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/no-government-funding-for-seti.html
[/quote]
I gave you my reference. Which one to trust?
cite your source.
Contrary to popular belief, no government funds are allocated for its SETI searches – these are financed entirely by private contributions
and
There is currently no government funding for SETI research, and private funding is always limited. Berkeley Space Science Lab has found ways of working with small budgets and the project has received donations allowing it to go well beyond its original planned duration, but it still has to compete for limited funds with other SETI projects and other space sciences projects.
also
http://philosophyofscienceportal.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/no-government-funding-for-seti.html
I gave you my reference. Which one to trust?
There is currently no government funding for SETI research, and private funding is always limited. Berkeley Space Science Lab has found ways of working with small budgets and the project has received donations allowing it to go well beyond its original planned duration, but it still has to compete for limited funds with other SETI projects and other space sciences projects.
also
http://philosophyofscienceportal.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/no-government-funding-for-seti.html
[/quote]I gave you my reference. Which one to trust?
[/quote]
I don't know, how about the one from wikipedia, seti, allen, and the major news outlets covering the story...
"First conceived by SETI pioneer Frank Drake, the idea has been a dream of the SETI Institute for years. However, it was not until early 2001 that research and development commenced after a donation of $11.5 million by the Paul G. Allen Family Foundation. In March 2004, following successful completion of a three-year research and development phase, the SETI Institute unveiled a three-tier construction plan for the telescope. Construction began right after, due to the pledge of $13.5 million by Paul Allen (co-founder of Microsoft) to support the construction of the first and second phases. The SETI Institute named the telescope in his honor. Overall Paul Allen has contributed more than $30 million to the project."
And even if £58 million of public money were invested since 1993 up to the publication of your source, that still amounts to only £5.8 million a year. However, from reading your source it seems that the £58 million mentioned relates to funding prior to the government cancellation of the HRMS project in 1993, and that the private sector picked up the bill afterwards... private funds increased from 2 million a year when the project started to 6 million a year by 1993.
Your source suggests that the project is funded largely through the public purse, but doesn't give annual figures... also, your source is almost a decade old.
There is currently no government funding for SETI research, and private funding is always limited. Berkeley Space Science Lab has found ways of working with small budgets and the project has received donations allowing it to go well beyond its original planned duration, but it still has to compete for limited funds with other SETI projects and other space sciences projects.
also
http://philosophyofscienceportal.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/no-government-funding-for-seti.html
I gave you my reference. Which one to trust?
I don't know, how about the one from wikipedia, seti, allen, and the major news outlets covering the story...
"First conceived by SETI pioneer Frank Drake, the idea has been a dream of the SETI Institute for years. However, it was not until early 2001 that research and development commenced after a donation of $11.5 million by the Paul G. Allen Family Foundation. In March 2004, following successful completion of a three-year research and development phase, the SETI Institute unveiled a three-tier construction plan for the telescope. Construction began right after, due to the pledge of $13.5 million by Paul Allen (co-founder of Microsoft) to support the construction of the first and second phases. The SETI Institute named the telescope in his honor. Overall Paul Allen has contributed more than $30 million to the project."
And even if £58 million of public money were invested since 1993 up to the publication of your source, that still amounts to only £5.8 million a year. However, from reading your source it seems that the £58 million mentioned relates to funding prior to the government cancellation of the HRMS project in 1993, and that the private sector picked up the bill afterwards... private funds increased from 2 million a year when the project started to 6 million a year by 1993.
Your source suggests that the project is funded largely through the public purse, but doesn't give annual figures... also, your source is almost a decade old.
From this you can deduce:
-The subsequent amounts that were invested are not known. Direct government funding did stop as you say, but collaborations with NASA and National Science foundation did not and there is a bill attached to that.
-How long it took to free up 58 millions dollars from tax payers money is not known, let me also remind you 58 million is not the complete amount. Government involvement with SETI projects was short term, which means this amount was probably given in lump sums.
-Again, SETI does not cost 2 million a year, you have to take into account the entire operational costs needed for the equipment to function and usage of specialized labor. 2 million is a little small in my opinion and other contracts for maintenance etc. 2 million is like for the profit amount obtained in the operation of a small but successful retail store.
Yo TAN costs 600 dollars to operate on a yearly basis, how do you think the SETI array costs?
From this you can deduce:
-The subsequent amounts that were invested are not known. Direct government funding did stop as you say, but collaborations with NASA and National Science foundation did not and there is a bill attached to that.
-How long it took to free up 58 millions dollars from tax payers money is not known, let me also remind you 58 million is not the complete amount. Government involvement with SETI projects was short term, which means this amount was probably given in lump sums.
-Again, SETI does not cost 2 million a year, you have to take into account the entire operational costs needed for the equipment to function and usage of specialized labor. 2 million is a little small in my opinion and other contracts for maintenance etc. 2 million is like for the profit amount obtained in the operation of a small but successful retail store.
Yo TAN costs 600 dollars to operate on a yearly basis, how do you think the SETI array costs?
1. You mean planetary system.
2. Of course it's light years away most everything is light years away.
3. You used the term light years to refer to distance and time.
[/quote]
In our current understanding, the speed of light is the fastest known speed. Based on that current understanding, the fastest any alien race can travel is the speed of light. A light year is a value for how far light can travel in any given earth year. Being that no alien race should go faster than that, you can use light year as a reference to distance of time. If an alien race has the technology to carry huge ships at the speed of light, for extended periods of time, the power output of these vessels would be outside of our current understanding of physics. If they have technology that travels faster than the speed of light, or sci-fi ideas like wormholes, FTL Jump drives (BSG, SG:U) again, the power required and technology is far outside our understanding. If they had the power and the technology to meet and exceed the speed of light, we are nothing but ants to them. They would've come and wiped us out already for whatever resources this planet has to offer. I'm not teasing anyone for believing otherwise, but that's why i don't subscribe to an "aliens have been here for 50 years" theory.
1. You mean planetary system.
2. Of course it's light years away most everything is light years away.
3. You used the term light years to refer to distance and time.
In our current understanding, the speed of light is the fastest known speed. Based on that current understanding, the fastest any alien race can travel is the speed of light. A light year is a value for how far light can travel in any given earth year. Being that no alien race should go faster than that, you can use light year as a reference to distance of time. If an alien race has the technology to carry huge ships at the speed of light, for extended periods of time, the power output of these vessels would be outside of our current understanding of physics. If they have technology that travels faster than the speed of light, or sci-fi ideas like wormholes, FTL Jump drives (BSG, SG:U) again, the power required and technology is far outside our understanding. If they had the power and the technology to meet and exceed the speed of light, we are nothing but ants to them. They would've come and wiped us out already for whatever resources this planet has to offer. I'm not teasing anyone for believing otherwise, but that's why i don't subscribe to an "aliens have been here for 50 years" theory.
We are starting to understand there might be real quantum FTL phenomena that do not escape our understanding. Gathering of information and any practical application of these FTL effects still occur at speeds lower than c but the phenomena itself is still superluminal.
You most likely know of this already, but examples include but not limited to quantum entanglement, quantum tunnelling, the expansion of spacetime or the closing speed between two particles traveling very near to c etc... There are plenty of other superluminal physical events that we have been able to establish their existence, so if there is an advanced civilization, they probably have useful means to obtain information by the exploitation of other events we are most likely unaware.
The point is, speed of light is no longer a limit per se. It is indeed true physicists have argued that transmission of information cannot surpass c, and that is an universal constant. But non informational physical events can be observed. I know you will this is a contradiction but... I'm just regurgitating what I've read in scientific papers and other online sources.
We are starting to understand there might be real quantum FTL phenomena that do not escape our understanding. Gathering of information and any practical application of these FTL effects still occur at speeds lower than c but the phenomena itself is still superluminal.
You most likely know of this already, but examples include but not limited to quantum entanglement, quantum tunnelling, the expansion of spacetime or the closing speed between two particles traveling very near to c etc... There are plenty of other superluminal physical events that we have been able to establish their existence, so if there is an advanced civilization, they probably have useful means to obtain information by the exploitation of other events we are most likely unaware.
The point is, speed of light is no longer a limit per se. It is indeed true physicists have argued that transmission of information cannot surpass c, and that is an universal constant. But non informational physical events can be observed. I know you will this is a contradiction but... I'm just regurgitating what I've read in scientific papers and other online sources.
You most likely know of this already, but examples include quantum entanglement, the expansion of spacetime or the closing speed between two particles traveling very near to c etc... Advanced alien probably have means to transfer information indirectly at FTL speeds.
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Quantum entanglement is not FTL, closing velocity is not FTL, and the expansion of spacetime took place within a frame of physical laws that no longer apply.
God fucking damn it deo, stop being such an ignorant, pseudo-science, new-age retard.
You most likely know of this already, but examples include quantum entanglement, the expansion of spacetime or the closing speed between two particles traveling very near to c etc... Advanced alien probably have means to transfer information indirectly at FTL speeds.
Quantum entanglement is not FTL, closing velocity is not FTL, and the expansion of spacetime took place within a frame of physical laws that no longer apply.
God fucking damn it deo, stop being such an ignorant, pseudo-science, new-age retard.
Edit: God damn it, I did not know I had submitted the comment earlier. I had pressed the edit button an hour ago (had to leave for a small errand) and came back thinking I'm still typing the comment for the first time lol.
Edit: God damn it, I did not know I had submitted the comment earlier. I had pressed the edit button an hour ago (had to leave for a small errand) and came back thinking I'm still typing the comment for the first time lol.
I mentioned Gravitons because in string theory, gravity is the only force we know that can penetrate beyond our spatial dimensions. Perhaps aliens are just a dimension away, but you have to use gravity to communicate.
Again, I don't think radio-aliens are out there in our galaxy... I believe SETI is probably mainly funded by rich tech Billionaires, but I doubt they'll find anything. I think the sky should be flooded with communication if anyone was out there.
I also bet we will be run by (or become) machines within a thousand years, and we'll be sending robots to do our exploring for us. If you consider how long it would take to send out a beacon to every star, then pick up materials and build clones to expand out... we could cover the galaxy in a couple hundred thousand years. We could probably build such devices ourselves in a few hundred years. But nobody is calling. No civilization in billions of years has reached this "beacon period".
To me, this suggests societies must die or transform before this "beacon period" is reached.
I mentioned Gravitons because in string theory, gravity is the only force we know that can penetrate beyond our spatial dimensions. Perhaps aliens are just a dimension away, but you have to use gravity to communicate.
Again, I don't think radio-aliens are out there in our galaxy... I believe SETI is probably mainly funded by rich tech Billionaires, but I doubt they'll find anything. I think the sky should be flooded with communication if anyone was out there.
I also bet we will be run by (or become) machines within a thousand years, and we'll be sending robots to do our exploring for us. If you consider how long it would take to send out a beacon to every star, then pick up materials and build clones to expand out... we could cover the galaxy in a couple hundred thousand years. We could probably build such devices ourselves in a few hundred years. But nobody is calling. No civilization in billions of years has reached this "beacon period".
To me, this suggests societies must die or transform before this "beacon period" is reached.
[quote user=ericmanning]To me, this suggests societies must die or transform before this "beacon period" is reached. [/quote]
Lol you remind me of this dude. Sigh, how nostalgic :).
Lol you remind me of this dude. Sigh, how nostalgic :).
I'm curious, but it's not a link for me.
I'm curious, but it's not a link for me.
Here's the link...http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
Here's the link...http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
We're lucky cold fusion doesn't exist. The Universe was just nice enough to make this impossible. If it were real, every nutcase with an internet connection would be building nuclear bombs in their garage. Maybe the universe isn't so nice further up the technological ladder.
We're lucky cold fusion doesn't exist. The Universe was just nice enough to make this impossible. If it were real, every nutcase with an internet connection would be building nuclear bombs in their garage. Maybe the universe isn't so nice further up the technological ladder.
From this you can deduce:
-The subsequent amounts that were invested are not known. Direct government funding did stop as you say, but collaborations with NASA and National Science foundation did not and there is a bill attached to that.
-How long it took to free up 58 millions dollars from tax payers money is not known, let me also remind you 58 million is not the complete amount. Government involvement with SETI projects was short term, which means this amount was probably given in lump sums.
-Again, SETI does not cost 2 million a year, you have to take into account the entire operational costs needed for the equipment to function and usage of specialized labor. 2 million is a little small in my opinion and other contracts for maintenance etc. 2 million is like for the profit amount obtained in the operation of a small but successful retail store.
Yo TAN costs 600 dollars to operate on a yearly basis, how do you think the SETI array costs?
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Your source is a decade old, which means the data it relies on is older still, while the sources I cited are all far more recent. As for it providing a 'relatively complete expenditure'... not even close.
All the more recent sources suggest that the annual budget for SETI comes in at between 2 and 5 million dollars, and much of that comes from philanthropists such as Allen who ploughed tens of millions into the array since direct government funding dried up in 1993.
On closer reading, your source suggests that once government funding stopped, a core of researchers established a largely privately funded non-profit research group which 'acquired' the $58 million array and its equipment... that was back in the mid 90s, and since then Paul Allen has put around $30 million into the institute. I've no doubt that the water is muddied by this:
"Funding for SETI Institute programs comes from a variety of sources. Contrary to popular belief, no government funds are allocated for its SETI searches – these are financed entirely by private contributions. Other astrobiology research at the SETI Institute may be funded by NASA, the National Science Foundation, or other grants and donations. TeamSETI is the SETI Institute’s worldwide membership and support organization."
As for your assertion that SETI doesn't cost $2 million a year, well, that's your opinion. As yet you've provided nothing to back that up, while I've provided dozens of links to sources citing an annual budget of under $5 million. Your post is heavy on assertion, but light on evidence.TBH, I really don't see the problem, the sum of money involved is about the same as that used to fund Jodrell Bank's Merlin project in the UK (£3 million a year).
From this you can deduce:
-The subsequent amounts that were invested are not known. Direct government funding did stop as you say, but collaborations with NASA and National Science foundation did not and there is a bill attached to that.
-How long it took to free up 58 millions dollars from tax payers money is not known, let me also remind you 58 million is not the complete amount. Government involvement with SETI projects was short term, which means this amount was probably given in lump sums.
-Again, SETI does not cost 2 million a year, you have to take into account the entire operational costs needed for the equipment to function and usage of specialized labor. 2 million is a little small in my opinion and other contracts for maintenance etc. 2 million is like for the profit amount obtained in the operation of a small but successful retail store.
Yo TAN costs 600 dollars to operate on a yearly basis, how do you think the SETI array costs?
Your source is a decade old, which means the data it relies on is older still, while the sources I cited are all far more recent. As for it providing a 'relatively complete expenditure'... not even close.
All the more recent sources suggest that the annual budget for SETI comes in at between 2 and 5 million dollars, and much of that comes from philanthropists such as Allen who ploughed tens of millions into the array since direct government funding dried up in 1993.
On closer reading, your source suggests that once government funding stopped, a core of researchers established a largely privately funded non-profit research group which 'acquired' the $58 million array and its equipment... that was back in the mid 90s, and since then Paul Allen has put around $30 million into the institute. I've no doubt that the water is muddied by this:
"Funding for SETI Institute programs comes from a variety of sources. Contrary to popular belief, no government funds are allocated for its SETI searches – these are financed entirely by private contributions. Other astrobiology research at the SETI Institute may be funded by NASA, the National Science Foundation, or other grants and donations. TeamSETI is the SETI Institute’s worldwide membership and support organization."
As for your assertion that SETI doesn't cost $2 million a year, well, that's your opinion. As yet you've provided nothing to back that up, while I've provided dozens of links to sources citing an annual budget of under $5 million. Your post is heavy on assertion, but light on evidence.TBH, I really don't see the problem, the sum of money involved is about the same as that used to fund Jodrell Bank's Merlin project in the UK (£3 million a year).
http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/CA/Seti-Institute.html
I believe the overview provides information obtained from a 2009 audit. If you go further down, you will see a detailed report of assets and revenues of the program.
http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/CA/Seti-Institute.html
I believe the overview provides information obtained from a 2009 audit. If you go further down, you will see a detailed report of assets and revenues of the program.
Meh, in any case, the money used for SETI is too low, practically crumbs to be useful for other scientific projects I vouch for... We're talking about 15~20 millions in yearly expenditure, maximum 30mil (and that's stretching it a little). Exploration for our solar system and local environmental research would cost a lot more than that.
Meh, in any case, the money used for SETI is too low, practically crumbs to be useful for other scientific projects I vouch for... We're talking about 15~20 millions in yearly expenditure, maximum 30mil (and that's stretching it a little). Exploration for our solar system and local environmental research would cost a lot more than that.
I more or less read your argument to be on principle. SETI won't find anything and is a diversion away from scientific time and money. Even if it's funny money from billionaires, it's still a waste.
I think most hard-nosed scientists probably agree with that. The government has removed its funding and it attracts so little scientific interest for a reason.
Then again, I'm not so sure Sagan thought it was a very scientific project either. I think he felt it was something that could inspire people to want to learn science. He would often promote projects that weren't too expensive and had little value outside of gaining public appeal (I'm reminded of pale blue dot).
I more or less read your argument to be on principle. SETI won't find anything and is a diversion away from scientific time and money. Even if it's funny money from billionaires, it's still a waste.
I think most hard-nosed scientists probably agree with that. The government has removed its funding and it attracts so little scientific interest for a reason.
Then again, I'm not so sure Sagan thought it was a very scientific project either. I think he felt it was something that could inspire people to want to learn science. He would often promote projects that weren't too expensive and had little value outside of gaining public appeal (I'm reminded of pale blue dot).
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Quantum entanglement is not FTL, closing velocity is not FTL, and the expansion of spacetime took place within a frame of physical laws that no longer apply.
God fucking damn it deo, stop being such an ignorant, pseudo-science, new-age retard.
[/quote]
OY at least cite some articles.
Quantum entanglement is not FTL, closing velocity is not FTL, and the expansion of spacetime took place within a frame of physical laws that no longer apply.
God fucking damn it deo, stop being such an ignorant, pseudo-science, new-age retard.
OY at least cite some articles.
I more or less read your argument to be on principle. SETI won't find anything and is a diversion away from scientific time and money. Even if it's funny money from billionaires, it's still a waste. [/quote]
True. I still stand by my argument. I would like to see people get fascinated as much by other 'genuine' scientific ventures but then again it's not longer worthwhile for me to debate this further over such small costs unless I verify the operational costs of other scientific programs for comparison.
[quote user=ericmanning]I think most hard-nosed scientists probably agree with that. The government has removed its funding and it attracts so little scientific interest for a reason.
Then again, I'm not so sure Sagan thought it was a very scientific project either. I think he felt it was something that could inspire people to want to learn science. He would often promote projects that weren't too expensive and had little value outside of gaining public appeal (I'm reminded of pale blue dot).
[/quote]
I am always amazed by Carl Sagan's charm and fascination of the cosmos. I always thought he sounded like a preacher in his videos. Most of his philosophical observations were pretty interesting too and always on point though.
I more or less read your argument to be on principle. SETI won't find anything and is a diversion away from scientific time and money. Even if it's funny money from billionaires, it's still a waste.
True. I still stand by my argument. I would like to see people get fascinated as much by other 'genuine' scientific ventures but then again it's not longer worthwhile for me to debate this further over such small costs unless I verify the operational costs of other scientific programs for comparison.
Then again, I'm not so sure Sagan thought it was a very scientific project either. I think he felt it was something that could inspire people to want to learn science. He would often promote projects that weren't too expensive and had little value outside of gaining public appeal (I'm reminded of pale blue dot).
I am always amazed by Carl Sagan's charm and fascination of the cosmos. I always thought he sounded like a preacher in his videos. Most of his philosophical observations were pretty interesting too and always on point though.
^That would be hard to do considering at first there would have to be a standard to define the term which by your own argument we lack the intelligence to establish.
[/quote]
You can haz circular logic...
^That would be hard to do considering at first there would have to be a standard to define the term which by your own argument we lack the intelligence to establish.
You can haz circular logic...